Following along on the same lines of the wonderful post that resonated with me, I stumbled across another post that had quite the opposite affect. One of the blogs I follow written by the lovely Beckie had a link to this post. But to sum it up this was what was written in regards to IVF from the perspective of this Catholic blogger:
IVF basically states the same as contraception and abortion. When we do those things we are taking control over what is not ours. Just because we can take control, does not mean that we should take it.
IVF says I can have control and I WILL have what the desires of my heart are....so I WILL go and create life in a pietri dish and say that God is the one that deemed that life, God created life and therefore I just used the technology God gifted us with..... Isn't the deception of all evil making something "seem" as if God did it......The devil doesn't have to be too smart here.
IVF says I can have control and I WILL have what the desires of my heart are....so I WILL go and create life in a pietri dish and say that God is the one that deemed that life, God created life and therefore I just used the technology God gifted us with..... Isn't the deception of all evil making something "seem" as if God did it......The devil doesn't have to be too smart here.
I WILL freeze the left over embryos, I WILL implant however many babies I think will give me the greatest chance, and if for some reason, if the babies do not survive I have leftovers...I WILL have a back up plan. They are conveniently in the freezer, stunted in their growth because I control when they should live and die. I control when they should live and die.
So here we have more victims of demise because of our choice. I think we have taken it a step further. We have chosen to create life and took the chance on whether that life will live or a chance it could die because of our choice, our desire, our bleeding heart. It is not enough of an excuse for me and I would also bet the babies that were created outside of the womb would agree.
I am interested in hearing what other woman who have chosen the IVF road to have a family think of this (whether you are religious or not) If you read the whole post including the comments on the bottom you will understand why this left my blood boiling so much. This post and some of the comments on this blog has reminded me of why I stepped away from religion. This is why. I just cannot comprehend how hypocritical and judgemental some of these people are (and please note the use of the word 'some'). We are all responsible for our own decisions and should not be made to feel bad for them. I thought religion was about loving one another and not judging? Infertility is a disease (as recognised by the World Health Organisation) and IVF is a treatment. By the same token, does this mean that people diagnosed with other diseases should not seek treatment due to messing with 'Gods' intentions? As if this isn't hard enough. I am by no means saying that this is the opinion of all Catholics and realise that this is a minority opinion, but it is infuriating and perhaps these types of views are why people are leaving mainstream religion in droves. If people choose not to use IVF for their own moral reasons whether religious or not then I totally support that. What I don't support is having that judgement passed onto myself and others who DO choose to go down this path.
What do you think?
Wow some heavy saturday morning reading! The author of that post seems to conveniently find reasons why it's okay for any other fertility treatments(like she has had) except for ones where it's done in a petri dish...well isn't she just whoop de doo lucky then to have been able to concieve without IVF-she keeps talking about how everyone should 'heal' their infertility...well I would LOVE to hear her how she proposes my DH and I get 2 million slow moving sperm into my uterus when we have done all the necessary lifestyle changes-we did that 2 years ago in fact! This whole debate just raise so many complex issues and there is so much I could say about it but basically these people will find answers to suit their own situations no matter what, the sad thing is that they then have to pass judjement on other people's situations(people who unfortunately HAVE to turn to a petri dish to be able to concieve) just to justify their own decisions made in their own infertility journeys. All I can say is BRING ON THE PETRI DISH!Cos DH and I will be awesome loving parents no matter what-and we all deserve to be! (Jane xxx)
ReplyDeleteOh girl!!! Holy crap- that type of fundamental b.s. judgemental thinking is exactly why I am no longer Catholic. Eww..ewww...eww. It took a lot for me to not say what I really wanted to!!!! So instead, I wrote:
ReplyDeleteI have a lot of thoughts that I'd love to post, but obviously I know they'd be deleted by the fact that you are a "passionate, opinionated Catholic." However, I wondered if you ever thought about how the picture that you posted would make women who have had a m/c or still birth feel? I imagine if you are "passionate Catholic" that you also walk around protesting abortion with dead fetus signs. Nothing that I like more than being reminded of the day that I saw my bloody dead fetus fall out of my vagina. Thanks for the vivid reminder of that day. Thanks for making me want to vomit and cry because it brings back terrible flashbacks.
On someone else's blog, I read this comment and fell in love with it....
"What I hate is the idea that there are people who judge others for the decision they made because they see things in black and white. Because life ISN’T black and white, it’s shades of grey influenced by circumstances and situations. Who the do you think you are when you can sit on your high horse and judge someone else’s decision?"
Oh...oops, this may sound a little too open minded- yikes, I think I may be deleted, oops......
My blood is boiling too... you hit the nail on the head. GRRRR! SS
ReplyDeleteI read the sewinfertile post, and was incensed. People like her do not help anybody - not even their own side of the political argument. She has no logic in her "argument", what she writes is emotive and based on a very restrictive interpretation of the bible.
ReplyDeleteLovely girl...I am as fired up as they come...so fired up that I left a comment myself on that blog. Check it out, if you can bring yourself to revisit that awful place...
ReplyDeleteThe post at SewInfertile is a terrible post.... to think that there are that many people in the world who think that way is terrifying. I hope for their sake that if there is a God, that He is more loving and more forgiving than they are.
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ReplyDeleteI'm not in a place to choose IVF yet but if this is something in my future, her comments will not make me stray.
ReplyDeleteI think everything you said was right on target....
After reading the whole post and the comments. I truly feel sadden that someone can turn their beliefs around to judge others and make decisions on what is best for them. How dare she compare IVF with abortion!
Yep, pretty shocking Haidee. The 'IVF is wrong' view is one held by the majority of practicing Catholics...remember that orthodox Catholics also believe that contraception is wrong, so of course they would see IVF as wrong. This kind of judgmental crap is why I also stepped away from organised religion. That said, I come from a strong Christian (not Catholic) family, and they were all very supportive of my decision to use IVF, so it's obviously just certain people that think IVF is wrong. Anyway, I'll resist the urge to go look at this blog as I will also probably post something a little nasty and I seriously doubt that would achieve anything.
ReplyDeleteThere are so many people out there that love to bring others down for a whole variety of reasons, so I guess the best thing we can do is just ignore them! Hugs. xoxo
Her holier than thou attitude is disgusting!
ReplyDeleteThis good Catholic girl must have missed bible study classes on the day they taught Matthew 7.1
"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye."
i agree with you -- if you get cancer, does that mean that it's god's will and you should refuse treatment?
ReplyDeleteat the end of the day, if god didn't want them to use the technologies, then why did he have one of his children invent/discover them? (and i'm not at all religious)...but aren't we supposed to be all of god's children? didn't then god let one of his children discover these treatments? doesn't he want everyone to be happy and live in peace? shouldn't we share the love? isn't part of that love being parents and providing for our children?
i say, that if these overly religious people want to have these opinions, that's fine -- they are entitled to them..but they should keep quiet and not judge other people for having *their* own opinions and beliefs too.
b
Jesus Haidee! (excuse the pun) I'm Greek Orthodox and believe in God. Having had IVF & IUI treatments that were unsuccessful - my opinion and that of my family is basically this: If God intended us to be intelligent life forms then doctors etc were created to find ways to help us conceive. If not, then we would be very boring idiots sitting around trying to figure out how to start a fire for warmth and food still. Athena
ReplyDeleteI struggle reading things like this. I am Catholic and was bought up in a parish that questioned and understood people choices therefore I find my religious experience really caring. It's really hard to see where this person comes from. My partner and I are going through IVF it's not the religious side I find hard because life is life and should be cherished. I do believe in natural selection, my husbands family has so many bad diseases I wonder if we are doing the right thing. I guess this does tie a little to religious thought we weren't meant to...
ReplyDeleteHowever we are trying and hope it works out even with all my own fears.
Well, way to get me irate! Infertility is not something that anyone chooses. There are many people who seem to be able to pop out children with reckless abandon who are incapable of being able provide for their children and many of whom see them as a meal ticket!! Does this woman really know what goes on with IVF and fertility treatments? They are certainly no picnic and the heartbreak is devastating, not to mention that the financial cost adds to the pressure too. We do this because we are good people who want to enrich our lives with the love and joy that a child can bring, and we have love, stable relationships and homes. These children are the jewels of our eyes and there is no way anyone can tell me not to share that love!!!
ReplyDeleteI for one would love to be able to concieve au naturale, but we have not all been 'blessed' with a perfectly functioning reproductive system.
Everyone is entitled to their religious beliefs but their opinions don't need to be so blatantly 'put out there' in a way with is derogitory (sp) to those who are suffering.
Yeah. It's WAY unfortunate that there are people out there spewing this hateful attitude towards people struggling with infertility. I posted about the idea that "God chooses" who is fertile a while ago and I got some mixed responses. Basically, I believe in God and go to church, etc, but I do not believe that God uses us as his puppets dictating our every move. I think it is ridiculous for people to say that fertility is something that God controls. My aunt's niece has had two children both born addicted to heroine and both removed from her arms immediately after they were born. If God played such a huge role in fertility, I would have to believe that he would intervene in the instance mentioned above.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I agree with b35, does this blogger also believe that someone with the diagnosis of cancer should just accept her fate and refuse treatment???
Gah!!! Some people are SOOOO infuriating.
I am catholic and married into a VERY catholic family namely my in-laws. My in-laws attend mass every day, bible classes, are lay ministers. So I was very scared to tell them about our IVF. But they have been nothing but totaly loving and supportive in fact my MIL went to a couple of my appointments. I read in her catholic handbook that IVF was a sin. I asked them about that and they said they didn't believe that. They feel that we have a medical issue preventing us to become parents. God created the doctors, nurses, etc that are helping us work through infertility. If I had cancer would I seek help, of course, so to my in-laws we are doing nothing wrong. Now they aren't god but they know the church inside and out. I guess I will find out what god thinks if I am blessed to meet him someday.
ReplyDeletestopping over from ICLW #120... hello... and yes, that post is very thought provoking. i was raised catholic but am no longer. i have had discussions with my mother who is still about our IVF thoughts and she is accepting that this is a journey my dh an i need to live out on our own, instead of with her commenting on what if's and what happens to the embryos and.... (of which i have none left from the 2 ivf's we've done, and still have no children... so her concern over wasted embryos is not a concern).... i think sometimes i do think we shouldn't be messing w/ nature as much as we do in this world in general, and that's find to believe for a theme to live by, but when you look at it on an individual basis, there just simply should be no blanket statements. ... everyone's journey is their own.
ReplyDeleteBlech, what an inflammatory post. There's talking about what you are doing based on your beliefs and then there's this judgmental crap. Hope you get your BFP soon!
ReplyDeleteICLW
That post was totally out of line. Everyone has to make decisions for themselves, and I can't imagine ever trying to push my beliefs onto others like that. I try to let comments like that roll off my back, but it's hard sometimes.
ReplyDeleteIclw 75
This kills me, people thinking they can decide who is right and who is wrong. So there is something less about my son because he was born via IVF? If she knew him would she feel differently? The issue with the embryos, I get how it is difficult because I am living with that decision right now. The decision to allow six embryos to stay frozen while we decide how many to use or not use, but how is her opinion an issue? Why do I have to worry that after we make our desicion (which we have, to have one more child. period. no matter how many embryos we have) which is extremely difficult, to have to worry about what these people think of it.
ReplyDeleteI totally agree with you infertility is an illness and as such deserves treatment just like any other illness. Drives me crazy all of the judgement. If you can believe it I was judged for being ttreated for. My ectopic even though the outcome alll around was my death and the babys death there was no choice.
ReplyDeleteThank you for bringing our attention to that post. While I don't want to give this person any undue credit by answering her narrow-minded, self-righteous statements, it's always good to know what you're up against. It helps solidify your own convictions and determination, doesn't it?
ReplyDeleteShe talks about deception and evil, but I'm not sure to whom she refers, as Gd is meant to be all-knowing. She makes the petri dish sound like a bubbling witch's cauldron. The way I see it, the petri dish is rather beside the point; merely an innocuous stop on a rather important journey.
Let's face it: this is an evolving race and as we acquire more knowledge and expertise, we run the risk of getting some of it wrong as well as right. If Gd exists in the Judeo-Christian form that we all learned about, He undoubtedly knows all about our frailties, our desires, our afflictions and our ever-present need to reinvent the wheel.
By the way, I'm not going directly to the offensive post, because I know I would end up telling her to piss off. She is entitled to her opinion, but I don't have to like it.
First, thanks for stopping by my blogs. :)
ReplyDeleteSecond, I agree with Kathleen. Every journey is our own. Who are these people to tell anyone that they can't do IVF and try for a family of their own?? Grrrr. This is why I don't go to church anymore.
ICLW
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but her opinion f'in sucks.
ReplyDeleteHappy ICLW anyway!
http://just-two-lines-away.blogspot.com
Honey, I feel sickened. It's ignorant, uncaring, illogical stands like this that made me throw off my catholic upbringing as soon as I was old enough to think for myself.
ReplyDeleteHi,
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian (protestant) and I believe that there is nothing wrong with IVF. The intention is to create life which is a wonderful thing.
It is a shame that people become disillusioned with Christianity as a whole because of a negative experience they have had with the Catholic church. I encourage you all to read the bible (the book of Mark is a good start) and ignore all the stuff "religous" people have told you. It's what God tells you through his scriptures that matters.
Hi,
ReplyDeleteI was brought up in a very staunch Catholic home, and those comments infuriate me for that fact. I have recently discovered that IVF is our only option and going to grab that opportunity with everything I've got!!! My parents have been very supportive, and our belief is, sometimes you have to help something happen. This process is hard enough without negative nasty comments
Please don't paint/tar all of us Catholics with the same brush! I'm really sad about what that blogger wrote, but of course it was her opinion and she wrote it based on what she was feeling and experiencing at the time... I think there's a huge multitude of reasons why people are leaving organised religion, but of course it is wonderful to see so many women who have had fertility struggles still grasp firmly onto God and their faith that one day, there will be a little life in their arms to love and cherish. (PS yep I'm Catholic, very proud of it, and also find that some teachings or beliefs of the Catholic religion don't sit that well with me, but at the end of the day I love the great community church provides, and know that my relationship with God is more important than any categorising etc. If that makes sense.)
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